I have held Phoenix shares in my SIPP for a long time and needless to say sitting on unrealised losses. I thought the Sept results were positive albeit pension accounting is difficult to understand.
What am I missing the brand names are well known ?
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I have held Phoenix shares in my SIPP for a long time and needless to say sitting on unrealised losses. I thought the Sept results were positive albeit pension accounting is difficult to understand.
What am I missing the brand names are well known ?
Before I post this I should say Phoenix is my largest shareholding, so I may be slightly biased, however I'm going to try to be balanced.
The September results were mostly positive, although there are some points that on some traditional metrics don't look good. The main issue appears to be that Phoenix's leveraging has increased, to a degree where it's higher than their rivals. In a financial climate where debt may be considered an issue, this will potentially spook the market. In fact that appears to be the reason that JP Morgan have downgraded Phoenix, they believe it will produce capital and growth risks. Given the complexity of pension accounting, as you allude to, broker upgrades and downgrades probably affect insurance companies more than some less opaque institutions.
From my perspective the fear of debt is very much being overplayed, I do have some knowledge of how annuities are costed and how they're funded. Admittedly I do not know how Phoenix manage their back books, having never been associated with them, but most companies that work with bulk annuities have similar ways of managing risks. Generally bonds, or derivatives of similar financial instruments, are used to provide the funds for payment of pensions. In the current climate the value of those bonds will have decreased, due to inflation, this will reduce the book value of those investments. On the flipside the amount being paid out should still be covered by the bond investment, so the actual value of the investment is fairly irrelevant so long as it covers liabilities. Unless Phoenix become a forced seller of their assets then their cut of profits should remain similar, perhaps even better taking into account the general restriction of pension increases to 2.5% or 5% (depending on the type of Pension Increase Order for the schemes).
If inflation reduces then the bonds should recover, and their value on the books should also recover as a result. Those capped increases will also be locked into the pension, meaning the value of future cash flows will be lower than anticipated, which should produce a surplus in the back book. If inflation does, however, stick then the debt of Phoenix could be downgraded and that would make it more expensive to borrow to fund new buyouts - this is the primary risk. I don't believe there's any immediate danger, and given the number of buys from Directors recently I don't believe they do either.
If we believe the director reports then the dividend will be increasing 5% each year, I don't believe the market can ignore this forever. There is a growth company hiding behind the back book, and the profits from this should provide future cashflow, at the moment I don't even believe the market is pricing in the value of just the closed business.
As with any life company you should also be aware that you're also relying on the actuaries producing sound figures for longevity, these are fairly standard across the industry again, but they are adapted based on life factors for each scheme. In reality these usually balance out, and most of the companies that may have been somewhat liberal with those figures are no longer in the market.
The kind of comment I wish there was more of on Stockopedia. As a dividend investor this yield is tempting but raises red flags. The SP back to where it was 10 years ago, is the dividend sustainable?
The business may be misunderstood but if Mr Market never develops a better understanding then it will continue to languish.
Is the stock report correct? hl.co.uk show revenue steadily increasing from 2018-2022 while the stock report shows it fluctuating. y/e 2022 stockopedia total revenue -32B, hl revenue +7B
I've also suffered with my Phoenix holdings! First bought in Feb22, and topped up twice along the way.
The dividends have helped - my capital losses have been offset by half the dividends so far.
I think the dividends are sustainable; they are well covered by the positive cashflows.
However, you can find similar yields from other insurance plays currently. And that is what I think has been weighing on the share price. As the risk-free interest rate has risen, insurance as a whole sector has seen pressure on SP and overall dividend yields have risen. So in some ways, the decline in Phoenix is just tracking the wider sector.
It also hasn't helped that they haven't announced any large bulk buy deals so far this year, despite the prospect of more closed defined benefit schemes looking for a new home in an insurer.
At the current dividend yield I am happy to hold, collect dividends, and wait for the industry to be back in vogue again and Phoenix to rise (no pun intended).
(I hold in the Boon Fund)
Jones the investor
Thanks for such a fabulous and so well argued post. I have held Phoenix group (LON:PHNX) for several years now and been reassured both by their updates and analyst comment on it, but haven’t read anything as good as your overall reassuring post.
It’s just a shame that such high quality posts as yours (and quality articles, unless they are on the daily small company updates thread) continue to get so few viewings and so little follow up.
Hi Ken
Hope you don't mind my hijacking this chat .
I believe you like investments trust as I do however I wanted to ask you a couple of questions mainly to pick your brain if I can .How do I contact you ?
Thanks
I'm no accountant, but it looks like Stockopedia are using net income to define the total revenue, both are approximately -32 Billion; I'm not sure why they'd be using this figure for total revenue. HL are probably using Gross Premiums, which I believe would be the correct figure to use for total revenue. Both figures appear on page 168 of the annual report 2022.
I believe the majority of that 32 Billion pound loss would be due to the markdown on the fair value of the underlying assets, which is attributed on page 193 to a fair value markdown (c -38.5 billion). The total value of the financial assets being measured this way is on page 207, i.e. c. 205 billion. In itself it doesn't mean a lot, it's really just accounting to avoid mismatching assets on a fair value basis.
The important figures, in my opinion, are the cash generation figures. These are the ones that Phoenix highlight, providing the underlying assets provide the cashflow to match the annuity payments then (at least in the short to medium term) all is good. The Solvency II ratio, and surplus, is also a useful figure to keep an eye on.
The dividend does currently look sustainable, especially given the new business, but even with expert eyes you could never say it's guaranteed.
Boon, this is entirely true, a lot of the problem is that the insurance sector is unloved full stop.
Interestingly XPS Pensions is no longer unloved, it's now doing rather well. One of the key functions of XPS is to provide advice to UK pension schemes. I'd be surprised if they're not recommending DC pension schemes to go to a master trust (with whom they have a partnership with ABDN), and more importantly for the insurance sector for DB schemes to go to some form of buyout / re-insurance to de-risk.
The market appears to be moving back to de-risking and consolidation, after the mess with LDIs.
The discussion section has become very poor quality, too many people touting their youtube channels or websites and little in the way of informed comment or intelligent speculation. Ignore lists would help but the proprietors seem to entertain the fantasy that this is some sort of community, it isn't it is a subscription-based information service in which it necessary to throw out the the chaff from the wheat.
Today's announcement is an interesting one, it doesn't appear to have a significant material impact on the overall cash position but I guess it's the optics that count. It's always useful for an insurance company to be able to access cash earlier than it would otherwise be able to, so that's a positive, but it doesn't look like new cash. The market appears to like it though, so if it leads to a share price appreciation over time and the ability to generate new cash then it's good news.
The book value of PHNX shown on stockopedia is £3.25bn which equates to 325pps. In the interim accounts the Group in force long term free cash is £12.5bn, I can't see whether that is a discounted value or just cash, but his on it's own exceeds the market value of £4.8bn (stocko) by a significant margin. The new business being written should also be profitable so at 475pps it seems a very undervalued company to me. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Phoenix group (LON:PHNX)
The long term free cash is not readily available, but covers things like dividends and operating costs. However, the cash generation has been dependable over the years, and the recent announcement does allow some of that cash to be released earlier. Free cash isn't generally defined at a discounted value, so inflation will erode those returns, but the new business is at a point where it is securing cash flow to bolster that long term free cash. Even without the new business the available cash should be enough to return significantly more to shareholders than the current market value, it's not exciting but it's (relatively) low risk.
I may be missing something too, but if we are then we're in the same boat!
I bought in March 2022, so down about 25% but had 4 dividends which total just over a 100p. I have topped up today. Others in that sector have seen some recovery recently, Just (LON:JUST) Legal & General (LON:LGEN) Aviva (LON:AV.), but Phoenix group (LON:PHNX) is lagging a bit.
Possible takeover?