Spread betting questions....

31st Oct '24 by N0vice1Nvest0r

14 comments 768 reads

I've been investing a while, but i'm always learning. My current portfolio is returning 17% this year. I didn't know until recently that Spread betting is tax free as seen as gambling.

After further research, ive seen that it is only tax free until you trade regularly, with consistent profits or have a trading strategy and risk management. Whilst I have no issue with paying tax. I don't understand where the lines become blurred from an "individual" to a "professional".

All investors have risk management and want to make consistent profits. I would like to try it (knowing the risks associated with spread betting) but I have concerns that I'll see myself as an individual, whilst HMRC would actually see me as a professional. I'm not wanting to appear over confident, but I also don't want to get in a trap where I should be paying tax and aren't, or vice versa. (If that makes sense).

From research I need to record all trades. Should I only see myself as a professional once I hit say £5000?? Or should I aim higher?

At no point am I trying to evade tax or be over confident in my trading ability. Its just an option id never considered and where I make say 10% in a trade in my stocks and share ISA, which is nice, it could be even more profitable in a spread bet.

Following on, has anyone got any recommendations or any sites to avoid for spread betting. Im tempted by Spreadex.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I'm willing to listen to any one with experience and im always looking to enhance my knowledge with help from anyone willing to offer their expertise and experiences.

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Cancun

31st Oct '24

I had a very brief look a few months ago, but was put off by the spreads ... I would also be very grateful of any expertise...

N0vice1Nvest0r

I appreciate the spreads are larger than a standard trade, im intrigued by the volume too, is it better or worse than a normal trade? Are certain sites better for volume than others. So many questions and I'm surprised by the lack of videos on spread betting on Youtube.

Dragon

You're not a professional, and don't declare yourself as one. Robbie Burns doesn't and uses SB's all the time and doesn't pay tax.

You should only use SB's to trade if you have used up all your tax-free allowances first, as the fees and spreads will cost you more than the equivalent purchase in a trading account, if you intend to keep the trade for more than say three months.

I would also suggest you don't SB trade unless you're could at moving your trade into profit early, otherwise you, maybe, paying continuing fees on a losing position.

Use overnight for very sort term trades and use futures for longer holds, but you will have to keep paying the spread when you renew the future, so it has to be a winning position.

jonny71

1st Nov '24

I've been spread betting for years, having tried many platforms I settled with IG. It gives you access to markets and instruments abroad which you may struggle to find in the UK, and you can 'short' which you can't do with traditional stocks.

You only need declare tax if you register as a professional. My recommendation would be, just take a very small amount of your investment money, use it to do things you can't do elsewhere.

The big disadvantage is you'll need quite a lot of 'maintenance margin', example if I wanted to 'buy' Brent crude oil and to bet £1 per point of movement so if it moves from £70.00 to £70.10 I make £10 you'll need £747 of margin. You can have smaller increments so for brent crude the smallest is 0.24. In that example you'll also appreciate that if Oil drops suddenly due to a global event, and it goes from £70 to £65 you'll be £500 under water, things can really escalate quickly.

Big advantage can be shorting shares (where allowed), If I had shorted my current share portfolio rather than bought them, I would much richer than I am now....lol

BenHazz

2nd Nov '24

I used to listen to a daily podcast on YouTube with two American guys who use 'the wheel strategy' called "Coffee with Marcus and Mark". I used to use it more to keep up to date with everything happening over in the US but they also talk over all their trades. They have a lot of videos showing strategy which might interest you.

andrewdb

3rd Nov '24

you do not pay CG tax because it is gambling.

Most (I have seen 70-90% stats quoted) spreadbettors lose money. if your spreadbet account went to 0, and you wouldnt care much, fine. But be aware it is possible to end up with a 0.00 account balance and still owing a lot of money to the platform.

PaulS used to run leveraged spreadbet accounts a lot around 2000-2009. He writes occasionally on his experiences. They did not end well.

I personally use IG. It is for a very small, limited short-term shorting and an ongoing experiment into running a long/short mechanical position on the FT index.

LumpedOn

Like others below I have also settled on IG as my platform of choice, and have been using spreadbetting as a tool in my overall portfolio for over 15 years. . It took me a long time to learn some exceptionally expensive lessons, very similar to those Paul Scott has written about.

I've never seen nor considered anything about individual versus professional so can't offer a view on that. A quick browse on IG reveals the following, so I'm guessing your're not in that situation yet ?

Elective professional traders can open an IG professional account, and are not subject to recent regulatory product interventions. If you are able to answer yes to two or more of the following you may be eligible:

Have you traded leverage derivatives in significant sizes over the last four quarters?
Do you have a financial instrument portfolio worth over 500k Euros?
Have you worked in the financial sector, in a professional position requiring knowledge of derivatives trading, for at least a year?

Things have changed significantly since my early days when margin req't on "big" co's was between 2 & 4%, Rio Tinto as an example now needs 20% margin for even the smallest position on IG, which applies a bit of tempering (I remember once having ~£1.5m of Rio stock out overnight ahead of results) but nowadays I try to stick to full cover.

I would advise thinking deeply about the statement at the top of IG's log-in page "Spread bets and CFDs are complex instruments and come with a high risk of losing money rapidly due to leverage. 69% of retail investor accounts lose money when trading spread bets and CFDs with this provider. You should consider whether you understand how spread bets and CFDs work, and whether you can afford to take the high risk of losing your money."

Scary statement and statistics, but with careful management it is still a good tool as part of a full set. Pre-budget I cashed my whole non-tax protected account and have moved the cash onto IG, and I do this to have the necessary "maintenance margin" available. And I'll continue to use it. The key to good spreadbet account management is to have a full offline system set up, so you can model impacts, values held, margins etc - don't ever try to manage everything in a live environment. Set yourself up with a spreadsheet with your entire set of trades to be played with offline, and to fully understand your exposure and risk.

Spreadbetting is my worst performing account, mostly because I've got too excited and/or greedy when getting substantially ahead and then lose the lot within a month or two ! The speed at which things can turn means you need to be able to be full-time on it if you plan riskier stocks - or the dreaded margin call may come!

I did have a plan for US stocks, however this is now unlikely due to the IG standing of "immediatley to the left of the decimal point." This is ok with UK stocks but so many gains are missed with US due to it being $13.00 not 1300 like UK.

This will still be carefully monitored and paper tested before dipping toe is all goes well.

Thanks for the input guys!

lagib

4th Nov '24

If you fancy a good book on the subject I would suggest you try " The Naked Traders Guide To Spread Betting ". If you don't know of Robbie Burns he is very down to earth and doesn't try to confuse you with bs. Like others here I use IG as my main Spread betting account. Good luck.

Melva Dunn

18th Nov '24

This comment has been moderated

AnonymousUser2039832

8th Dec '24

Hello, some of the brokers offer 1:1 leverage where we dont have to pay any overnight charges. I have been using it for few months now and it looks pretty good i.e no hidden charges etc. Its almost like an extension of ISA account. ( I max out my ISA account so i'm looking for other tax efficient ways to invest)

Any providers that you would recommend Vishal please? I would do my own research as well obviously:)

Many thanks indeed

9th Dec '24

I tried IG.com, it's a little clunky. but seems ok. Yet to find a trade to try though with confidence.

20th Dec '24

Capital.com

This is the one I’m using for a few months now, there is no overnight charges .

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N0vice1Nvest0r

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