Does look like the number of millionaires leaving UK will more than double this year and increase after the election
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/1...
Guess biggest impact will be London and SE
About the Author
Bullhead
94 comments
bullhead
Hi Alphaflight
As usual I find myself agreeing with you too
“There is none so blind as those who will not see “
Is the phrase that springs to mind with some comments in this thread
Bullhead
Kouremenous
Projecting;
"When someone unconsciously attributes their thoughts, feelings, or behaviours to another person, they are projecting"
Time to get some glasses comrade?
PhilHofGrowYourDough
I haven't read the whole thread but my view would be ... there are plenty of tax free wrappers to protect investments from tax, e.g. an ISA or a SIPP.
If you've maxed those out and your are receiving income from dividends and making capital gains outside of a tax efficient wrapper then I'd suggest that you can afford to give a little more back.
Cancun
I would 100% agree with the sentiment Phil, but I think that its a question of who to give back to..... it's the potential 40% ( or worse ) CGT rate that investors fear... you suspect that some flatlining investments would just get stuck with significant gains... an investor may not want to rotate into another product / security if they will immediately face a large tax bill... that can't be good for efficient capital markets...
Many investors may feel that they have already paid 40/45 % income tax and are awaiting 40 % IHT, so 40%+ CGT is a third bite at the cherry...
If an investor doesn't necessarily agree with all the spending policies AND has already paid some chunky taxes, it would be great to offset charitable donations against CGT... Does anyone know if that is allowed under the current legislation please .... ? I have only ever offset against income tax....
Many thanks in advance
Alphaflight
"its a fact that people earning over 50k pay higher rate of tax - thats been a pretty basic tax consistent for many a year."
In England, someone earning £50k p.a. pays 14% in income tax, while someone earning £100k p.a. pays 27%. Someone earning £1M p.a. is paying 43% in income tax...
In other words, as a percentage, the chap earning £100k is paying close to twice as much as the chap earning £50k. So not exactly an egalitarian tax system in the UK.
rmillaree
Many investors may feel that they have already paid 40/45 % income tax and are awaiting 40 % IHT, so 40%+ CGT is a third bite at the cherry...
its a fact of life though now - for those wanting to moan about labout then the tories have effectively done the same with capital gains on rental properties too - there used to be taper or indexation (going back a while here i must admit) relief plus lettings relief plus no interets restrictions plus higher cgt exemption but now one pays tax on gains that are just keeping up in line withn inflation. if labour increase again it will probably be much of the same presumably papering over the cracks ref extra outgoings not covered by taxes (older people = more state pesnion and more care home nhs hassles)
If an investor doesn't necessarily agree with all the spending policies AND has already paid some chunky taxes, it would be great to offset charitable donations against CGT... Does anyone know if that is allowed under the current legislation please .... ? I have only ever offset against income tax....
Indeedy you can so if you are higher rate you can get relief agaisnt either dividend tax or capital gains tax. some ability to carry payments back to prior year too- if tax not quantified.
The main tool now really is the ability to add 60k pa to pension - so lots of opportunities for higher rate taxpayers to get a very generous retirement pot with very reasonable taxes only having been paid (tax on 75% of what you draw) . I suspect labour may target this area if they need to raise funds.
So whilst dividends tax for 50k plus 100k plus earners is deffo penal in many respects there are some options to mitigate - it helps though if you live a more frugal lifestyle unfortuantely till you can access your pension pot - lets be honest that aint much fun earning it and locking away for 25 years plus.
Heck company owners get to expense there porshe tycan or audi etron through their company in very tax efficient manner (token benefity charge) even if that car has next to no business use ! -
Alphaflight
Yes indeed.
As this thread demonstrates, there is little point arguing with the left, even if you present them with facts they will rebuff them...
rmillaree
the system if far from perfect - yes those earning more are hardest hit that is for sure thats a fact of life. Personally i think any rates over 40% are probably too high - i wont say 40% isnt high but we need to get out money from somewhere.
This has to be taken into context that a couple can get £100k pa between them paying only 14% tax and then load up on pensions and pay tax at under 14% on pensions when they start drawing them at 57. Heck run your own company and get the company to pay for your family electric porsche and huge double can pickup and all is good
So not exactly an egalitarian tax system in the UK.
It depends on your viewpoint - should we tax people on the most basic level of incoem they need to get by - personally i think its fair and reasonable that anyone earning under 15k per year should pay no tax on the basis thats get by money. the reality is for thos people if we taxed them we may have to pay them back extra in benefits.
so to me 3 scales of tax - basic (no tax) - standard rated (enough to house onseself) and higher rate does make sense. You may not believe me but if i wa slucky enough to earn over the 100k i wouldnt over quibble about paying 40% tax.
Obviously if we could lower taxes i would be all for that and if we can afford to i would say anyone paying over 40% marginal rate deserves a reduction in tax.
bullhead
Does seem reading down through comments that the trouble with the left has always been and always will be that when presented with the facts they ignore them as Alphaflight says further down
It always seems to be about what they think is fair not real life
So people life poor old rimmy become convinced that alone who is successful is lucky
I know a lot of successful people most of which own there own businesses they worked very hard 60-80 a week took big risks borrowing money remortgaging their house etc to get where they are
Most people will never do that they won’t take the risk put in the effort (work life balance maybe) which is ok that’s their choice but don’t get jealous of the ones who do they deserve it they worked for it they took the risks you didn’t the harder you work the more luck you will get my friend
They are the ones who employ over 60% of people are employed in small businesses
https://commonslibrary.parliam....
they are the people you think the country won’t miss they are the people who makes this country work my friend
Don’t think most people on the left will ever see or understand this which is a shame but what I have come to expect
The bottom 50% of tax payers pay 10% of income tax the top 1% pay 30% the top 10% pay 60%
You need the people who start run these businesses
Have the last say if you want anyone else
Will do another thread about the 80/20 rule another time which sums this up well
Don`t let the tail wag the dog
I find your posts quite offensive. Stick to the arguments and stop posting personal insults
PhilHofGrowYourDough
Seriously some people here need to step outside of their lives and step into the shoes of other individuals.
As a practicing psychotherapist I'd love you to hear even a handful of stories that are routinely shared at a mental health charity such as MIND (I choose MIND as it's a mental health charity that offers free counselling sessions and tends to attract the most disadvantaged in society). Mental health crises, grief, trauma, drug related psychosis (I'm sure there's plenty here who dabble or have dabbled with some party drugs) aren't fussy ... they will find everyone in society. Said individual might end out of work, or so ill they find themselves of PIP, or on the streets.
If you are worrying about tax on Capital gains or dividends when there are plenty of tax efficient wrappers to protect your wealth and investments then in my opinion you have lost perspective on the suffering of others.
Perhaps volunteer at a shop kitchen or help out at a food bank and then you might hear some of the stories and then it becomes harder to label anyone who is in receipt of a benefit. Of course the will be fraud in these matters, but there will be fraud wherever there is money.
Cancun
Not entirely sure who your reply is aimed at Phil, but I do volunteer and hence why I would like to choose the charity to offset the capital gains tax bill... After paying income tax and before paying IHT, I would rather direct the money to where I think it's needed rather than rely on the Government deciding..
As an aside, I can see stagnant holdings being counter productive to the economy... This is a totally 1st world, high income problem, but one that I can see having a material effect ....I'm not a car lover, but let's say you had put 20k into an investment 10 years ago that was now worth 60k ... assuming that you have already used the 3k CGT allowance, then 20% of 60k-20k = 8k CGT to be paid ... so you can buy a 52k car with your 60k investment... if you don't NEED to change your car then a 40% CGT rate means 68k to buy a 52k car ... suddenly seems far less palatable...
I can see a lot of profitable investments getting stuck , hindering the circular flow of money, the multiplier effect and hence growth... people will just leave them untouched until they die, so they just pay 1 tax of IHT , not 40% CGT and then IHT on top... I think that's correct, that there's no CGT at death and a new purchase price is activated ( happy to be corrected)
I don't think that its coincidence that the Americans have the most capitalist and successful economy, but also give the highest % of income to charity...
donald pond
The simplest thing if you are pretty wealthy is to move abroad for a while. There are lots of countries with better weather, a higher quality of life and very low taxes for new residents. The UK move on non-doms is, whether you agree with it or not, swimming against the tide. It is effectively a sign up saying "wealthy people not wanted here" at a time other countries are doing the opposite.
Thats why tax needs to have a broad basis. Because anyone with a few million can move easily. Retiring to Portugal, Greece or Italy for a few years is perfectly feasible for most people rather than the outrageous prospect it seemed 50 years ago. Throw in tax advantages and the scope for the UK government to squeeze the wealthy is very limited.
Alphaflight
Exactly.
Note that if you leave the UK and then come back in the future, if HM Revenue & Customs can show that you always intended to come back then they can still tax you retrospectively (w.r.t a capital gains tax position). Hence why you have to cut all ties, giving up UK golf memberships, car clubs, and so on (i.e. to look like you never intend to return...).
"wealthy people not wanted here"
That's how I interpret these changes. It will be interesting to see what happens to central London over time as these non doms leave for greener pastures.
Alphaflight
It could be worse though:
France Leftists’ Plans Include 90% Top Marginal Income Tax Rate
